My view goes something like this: neglect is a form of abuse, anyway. However, the danger of a government system evaluating families is that some may be eroneously labled abusive. The only example I see from your lists would be mayyyybe the vaccine one, although... well, I better not get into that here.

The malformed male thing usually effects the ability to control the bladder, in which case it certainly impacts the child's self esteem and development and that mom should be given notice that the surgery is deemed non-elective.

There are even more of these gray areas... poligamy, failure to educate, etc. I personally tend to take a fairly hard line supporting kids rights even though I'm leery of governments and in particular their attempts to regulate or legislate morality.

In an ideal world, giving the birthfamily every opportunity to be educated about caring for the child would solve many of the "neglect" issues. In the real world, there is a reason these are on the lists- it's generally agreed these incidents damage children in ways that also damage society.

Neglect IS abuse. Neglect is abuse by omission, while "abuse" is abuse by commission. Both are still abuse.

"Children watching pornography or watching people have sexual relations can be considered neglect."

This falls under the label of sexual abuse. You do not have to physically touch a child to sexually abuse him.

Another "gray" area of abuse is emotional abuse (although I do not see it as "gray.") There are many abusive things you can do to a child without touching him.

++++ graphic abuse alert ++++

For example, if you kill a child's beloved pet right in front of him, this is abuse. There are people who will inflict sadistic abuse on a sibling as "punishment" for a child's behaviors. Even though the abuse is being inflicted upon the sibling, it is emotionally abusive to the child who is being "punished."

Leaving a child unattended is abusive, too. I know numerous abuse survivors who were raped while their mothers were getting high or having sex in another room. If you cannot/will not keep your child safe, then you should not have custody of your child.

- Faith

Hmm very broad definitions of neglect. First maybe the Amish could be charged with neglect, they don't have electricity and while they have water it comes from a well or pump. Oh and they don't have phones in their homes or drive cars. There are lots of families out there that do not believe in immunizations. While all mine have had thier shots , if I had it to do over again definately not. It can be considered neglect and people have been charged for giving their children raw cows milk. I think that anything that people do not agree with or understand comes labeled as neglect. My six year old walked outside barefoot on numerous occasions while living with his birth mom, do you know that was one of the things they brought up in court to prove she was a neglectful mother. WE are not talking about walking around town just out in the yard. I grew up without shoes in the summer. Not because we couldn't afford it but I just hated shoes. Walking to school can be considered neglect. One mother I know got tired of her teenager being late so she left for work, the girl had to walk to school. Someone turned her in for neglect. All of these are stupid reasons and just peoples excuses to complain because they do not agree with how someone is raising their child. To me neglect is not providing for the basic care. Food, clothing, shelter. Abuse is physically or emotionaly hurting the child. I also think that social services takes their authority to far. That is why we love living in the country. Noone cares if your kids run around in the yard shoeless, because they do it, noone cares if you feed your children raw milk, because they all do it. And noone cares if your child walk a mile to school because chances are they have to walk that far to the end of the driveway. As for immunizations there is no law that states you have to immunize your children. They cannot deny your child public education because of it either, there is a form you can fill out opting out. So if there is no law then how can it be considered neglect. Just a thought

veggie

I don't mean to be argumentative and I have a feeling I would have loved to grow up next door to veggie!

But... I think that "basic care" includes more than food, clothing and shelter. I think it's easy to assume everyone will take care of a child's essential humanity because you yourself can't imagine it any other way. You're absolutely right, though- there is a very fine line here and I don't think it's easy to lay down blanket rules for what is harmful to the point of requiring removal.

As an almost completely unrelated sidenote (hope you don't mind, Lanette!) I am curious to see what happens in the vaccine debates over the next few years. There was a measles outbreak this summer in a nearby town, and the pro-vac parents are getting more vocal about the risks the non-vac kids pose. A pregnant woman was thought to have been exposed to a non-vac kid, but it turned out to be fine.

My daughter has bad eczema(yes it even bleeds occasiaonlly). We have taken her to the Dr. countless times, she has been on both prescription oral steroids and creams, yet it looks awful and people are always asking me about it suspiciously when we are in public.
Reading this made me wonder about all the assumptions of abuse as well. I know we are not abusing our daughter, but people who just judge on seeing her rash might think something different.

My friend's daughter had the same issue w/eczema, and she would get the "evil eye" from strangers as well, even though my friend sank sooo much money into doctor's appts and meds to fix the problem.

Re: vaccines -- That's a whole different debate. I know several attachment parents who are very anti-vaccines but are very devoted parents. They truly believe that the vaccinations can be harmful to their children. I would not call them neglectful.

- Faith